A high school student with perfect SAT scores and nine Advanced Placement courses under his belt should have his pick of colleges, right? If the student in question is Asian, not necessarily. Take the Asian-American dynamo with these very credentials denied admission to Princeton, Harvard, Stanford, the University of Pennsylvania, and MIT. The student filed a lawsuit against Yale in 2006 alleging that the prestigious university rejected him because of his race, the Boston Globe reports. Although that suit has yet to be settled, an increasing number of Asian Americans say that admissions officers at the nation's most elite universities have what's been dubbed an "Asian ceiling." This prevents the Asian population of the student body from exceeding 20 percent.
At Harvard, for example, the number of Asian students has remained relatively static over the past five years, according to the Globe. Asian Americans compose 17.8 percent of students Harvard admitted last month, up just three percent from a decade ago. But the demographics of the University of California indicate that Asian Students should make up far more of the student body at prestigious universities nationwide. Why? Because 14 years ago, a measure known as Proposition 209 went into effect in California which put an end to race-based admissions. Today, Asian-American students make up 40 percent of the student body at the state's top school--the University of California, Berkeley. That's more than double the amount of Asian Americans at Ivy League institutions. The difference? Ivy League schools may consider race in the admissions process.
"If institutions are using race to keep Asian-American students out, it's based on a fear that these 'other' students are taking over our institutions," says Sam Museus, an Asian-American studies professor at the University of Massachusetts, told the Globe.
Admissions officers deny capping the number of Asian-American students at schools, but a 2009 book called No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal posited that Asian Americans needed nearly perfect SAT scores to gain entrance to a top private university and that whites were three times more likely than Asians to be accepted into any U.S. university.
Some argue that this is no big deal, given that Asians are already overrepresented in higher education. After all, they make up just about 5 percent of the U.S. population, but quadruple that figure in the Ivy League. That may be true, but discriminating against Asian students because they're overrepresented smacks of racism. Asian students shouldn't be held to a higher standard than whites, blacks or Latinos in the admissions process. Moreover, capping the number of Asian students in higher ed paints Asian Americans with a broad brush. It doesn't take into account the low-income Asian students who managed to excel in high school or applicants from Asian ethnic groups who are typically underrepresented in higher ed. While ethnic diversity on college campuses has proven to beneficial, admissions officers shouldn't foster this diversity by imposing a glass ceiling on the nation's so-called "model minority."
Comments
As the parent of a Yale undergraduate, I can attest that admissions decisions at that university are based on much more than grades, SAT and other standardized test scores, and AP courses. Almost every Yale undergraduate earned perfect or almost perfect high school grades and test scores… and tens of thousands of the same are rejected by Yale every year.
Extracurriculars, community involvement, demonstrated passion and achievement in a specific issue or academic area, leadership, athletic accomplishment, writing talent, as well as personal qualities of enthusiasm, flexibility, sensitivity to others (and more) that may be mentioned by high school counselors and teachers in reference letters… all of these weigh heavily in Yale admissions decisions.
When asked by potential students how much grades, SAT scores and AP courses matter in admission decisions, the Cal Tech Director of Admissions said that they matter very little… that they are a given. That admissions officers go forward from those as a base to review others factors that differentiate applicants.
In the first comment, Deborah White said, “That admissions officers go forward from those as a base to review others factors that differentiate applicants.”
Those “other factors that differentiate applicants” may be that African-Americans and Latinos less qualified than many Asian-Americans are admitted to Ivy League Universities over more qualified Asians due to that invisible glass ceiling for Asians.
After all, how many African Americans and Latinos would have to start at a two or four year state college to catch up if Asians filled 40% of the seats at Ivy League colleges, as they should because they worked harder to achieve a higher academic standard?
This, in fact, stinks of preferential racism that favors the so-called protected minorities in the US because Asians tend to swallow their bitterness instead of protest violently as African American and Latino minorities often do.
For example, the NAACP says it fights for social justice for all Americans, however facts show that the NAACP tends to favor legislation that focuses on benefits for African Americans.
Then there is a post that shows Latino Political Clout is growing in America.
The way it currently works in American higher education: Because Asian-Americans, are on average, the most succesful in school, they would, if all were treated equally in admissions, be “overrepresented” as a percentage of their absolute numbers. European-Americans are the next most academically succesful group, so they can, on average, get in with the next highest credentials. Latinos next and then African-Americans, with the result that these latter two groups get in with more relaxed standards. I agree that it is unfair to Asian-Americans, but it is also unfair to Euro-Americans, especially, as the article’s author pointed out, lower-socioeconomic Asians and Euros. But of course, if you don’t disadvantage these top two groups, you won’t get high enough numbers of the last two groups to make everyone happy.
So there it is.
Yes, it is racist to change the requirements of the system to protect lazy ass white students who need to be entertained and “motivated” in order to learn something.
I am sick of the ignorant, entitled, precious little monsters that is this new generation.
I grew up believing that if you worked hard at something… you succeeded. And it actually happened. I did the work, I got good grades and I went to college. If this standard was occurring today… then college campuses would likely be 70% Asian.
But most kids these days want to put in minimal effort and get a f*cking nobel prize.
And then their parents will scream bloody murder if they aren’t given a f*cking nobel prize. Completely absurdity.
BTW… I am Caucasian…. Educated by nuns using their rather barbaric but effective motivational tools. A ruler across the knuckles and failing grades.
Also, in my house, nothing below a “B” was acceptable. If I brought home a “C”, no tv, no allowance, no dessert until my grades went up. This occurred because my mom was trying to be a parent… not a friend. Parents need to learn to be adults.
Nough said…
Back @ Robert: Robert, love your post. Your words need to be read by all of America.
Many people say that Asians aren’t accepted into these schools because they lack creativity and leadership but I oppose strongly to the creativity part. To say that Asians aren’t creative is like calling Justin Bieber black. (well almost
) My friends in the eighth and seventh grade are known as the top artists in the whole school. Some of them have even won awards in some contests for best drawings and poems. The main difference between between asians and other races is that they work a whole lot harder. Why? Most asian countries are really small well except for China of course. Competition is as fierce as fire and a blink will knock you down forever. Then asians come to america in hope of a better chance of succeeding because is a looooooot bigger than Korea or Japan. And if one says that Asians aren’t creative then they obviously have never seen k-pop artists in action. Their performances are so unique and captivate audiences in all countries.(just a tiny bit of exaggeration there) Becoming an entertainer in Korea is a ten times harder than in America. Most singers train for four-five years to become one then once they are one they constantly work day and night to keep up. And they are payed ridiculously low compared to how hard they work. American singers are payed a hundred time better for their luck. Anyway this post may sound a bit childish because it is in fact coming from a bit frustrated middle schooler reading this article. So that’s my opinion. Have a great day! ^^
Competition drive us to perform better as long as the playing field is level. I am for economically disadvantaged to get a break in college admissions, but not for different races. Otherwise, we are just united at birth, then divided by color. My conception of an idealistic US was one of this world’s finest melting pot where individuals living together have equal opportunity to achieve something great. Because the economically disadvantaged do not have the same opportunity as the well-off, they are given an leg up in order to benefit social welfare. There are brilliant individuals who had the misfortune to born in a rotten place, but to categorize them just by race is a lazy-man’s solution to an important problem.
As an Asian-American college student who attends one of the top 10 universities in the US, the soft quota on us makes college not challenging enough. I’ll be finishing with 2 majors in 3 years.
Then again, it is a bitter-sweet emotion. I would have to thank the fact that I am able to drill down difficult materials by myself without a teacher for the fierce competition among Asians. However, it does concern me that if I ever wanted to work for the public sector, competition is high with better positions favoring other races. So a lot of us will settle for being a physician or lawyer, rather than working for government agencies such as NASA or being a DA.
Why you care about this group.
Asian-American are over-represented group!!!
Less than 5% of population have ~ 20% of admission.
Essentially, what I think many Asian-Americans lack is just what Ivy Leagues (and the most prestigious universities) are looking for: not being just a roll of perfect grades and SAT scores, but having a STRONG LIFE outside of the academic world.
They look for people who have chosen extracurriculars they clearly have an interest in, and who show their passion through multiple ways. Sometimes, these can even come in lieu of the traditional high-caliber grades and SAT scores. There’s no doubt that since these colleges have the pick of the best of the best, they want to make their class as diverse, motivated, and passionate as possible.
They want not only intelligence, but demonstrated creativity in the applicants’ various endeavours – and there are enough non-Asian-Americans like this to justify colleges being so picky.
I’m Asian and nothing under an “A” was acceptable in my household. Same went for all my Asian friends and cousins. If I dare got a “B” or lower, I would have to had endured hours and hours of tutoring until those grades became “A”s.
Not only were grades that critical, I had to play at least one musical instrument. I don’t know any Asian that didn’t have to play piano, violin or cello.
Plus, I had to play sports and excel at them. Bottom line is that I didn’t have any free time or weekend days to sleep in. I’ve never, EVER slept in past 9am growing up. My Caucasian friends always were “chilling” growing up. Parents were really lax when it came to grades and extracirricular activities. This was a shock to me!
Bottom line is that hard work and good grades will get you into any field that you want to be in. If you’re complaining about the system, then you’re just not that good enough. My medical school consisted of 130 students. 75 were Asian (ie more than half). About 30 were Indian. Only had 2 Hispanic students and 3 African Americans. Rest were Caucasian students. Was our school “racist” in admissions? I don’t think so.
I predict the Smart Asians in America wave will die down in 20 years, because
)
1. Only recent decades the Asian immigrants are mostly come as graduate students whom have to be best of the best in their original countries. (May be top 10% in their original countries)And we are seeing their children going to college in recent years. (No one said Asians 100 years ago over here are smart or overachieving.)
2. Second generation A. Americans are smart in gene and hardworking by culture (colleges unfairly put them in Asian competition pool, and they are so tired always compete among the best of themselves)
3. Third generation gene will be changed by inter-marriage with average citizens( Smart Asian girls will find smart guys, but smart guys will find pretty, average-intelligence girls and break the good genes
4. Less best of the best students from Asia will come after Asian economic boom.
In summary, the so called overrepresented Asian-American are actually under represent. As all races are equal, these descendents of the top 10% of Asian countries are also about top 10% of America. If the college admissions is fair, we should see 90% Asian-Americans in top colleges (if admission rate for top colleges is around 10%)
The stereo type that Asians always hard at studying with good grades are most of the time true, but to say that they lack creativity or outside activities are absurd. Love all the comments which stand up for Asians even though you’re not one is greatly appreciated.
The bottom line is this, why can’t we just consider the ones who deserve to fill the spots in Ivy league schools regardless of races? If you’re qualified you’ll get in and if you’re a dumb ass then you won’t. There’s no point in relaxing the rules just because you’re not good enough but we NEED to admit you to make good proportions among races is just plain wrong and not fair. After all, won’t these Ivy league schools want to keep their standard that every single one of their students is the best possible one?
Re: Deborah White – you’re wrong – first of all, Cal Tech is one of the few schools that takes a student’s academic record seriously. And the idea that Asians generally don’t demonstrate excellence is a specific field is nonsense – if you look at the top applicants to the Intel Science Talent search, it’s littered with Asian-American students. Also, if you look at the rolls of high school service clubs, you see plenty of Asian-Americans. The myth of Asian-American students doing nothing but studying is an old stereotype that doesn’t match the reality of schools today.
You people who advocate giving all the college spots to the most educationally advantaged are not considering how racist it would be not to encourage the economically and educationally disadvantaged to raisevthemselves out of poverty by getting a college education. The most disadvantaged are universally from impoverished neighborhoods with impoverished schools that decent teachers don’t want to work at. Those neighborhoods tend to be predominantly black and Hispanic. To do nothing to help lift this demographic from poverty is to permanently disenfranchise them. You want the diversity of all college graduates to reflect the actual diversity percentages of the entire population of the nation if correcting economic disparity is to be achieved.
Asian students are just sooo much better than the rest when it comes to getting good grades and, because no one group of people is any smarter than another, those good grades are not representative of their intelligence. Cant be. So if you have an asian student he/she will probably get at least 20 percent higher than the student of another ethnicity. So admissions officers have now a tacit understanding that if you pick the top grader earners you will get mainly asians and not necessarily the smarter students, just the ones coached from a young age, deprived of a childhood, drilled and brain dullened into machines that do not produce the most outstanding results. OVER taught that is the problem and it is a fact that this is causing a backlash of discrimination when it comes to college entry
Some people have to remember that independent studies have already been conducted. Independent experiments too (consider this experiment California). Berkeley and UCLA does not discount extracurricular activities in their admissions process! They always have. Proposition 209 did not say “we shall ignore extracurricular activities and look only at grades because we really love them Asians.”
Proposition 209 said, in summary, “you can look at every other factor, grades, SAT, extra curricular activities, interviews, whatever you want, EXCEPT race, you cannot be a racist and handicap someone because of their race, or handicap someone because you think your school has too many people of that color already.”
When that happened, the population of Asians at Berkeley and UCLA, who have always looked at extracurricular activities, and still do today (something they share in common with Yale and Harvard), doubled to nearly 50%. When we say California aimed to be a meritocracy, we don’t mean grade-centric, we mean WORTHY.
Ignore the Asians for a bit, and I’ll tell you why the author cares, and why you should too. I’ll tell you why Affirmative Action is a b—h that talks behind your back. The reason: Affirmative Action is insulting to the Black man! Why? BECAUSE of affirmative action, people look at a black person from Harvard and say “he’s probably not that smart anyway, he got in because of affirmative action, he could get 400 points less than a white guy and still get in, you don’t have to be smart to get into Harvard if you’re black, because the white guy they rejected and is now at UCLA is smarter than him but got rejected because he was white and not black… hiring the white guy from UCLA might still be a better idea…”
Affirmative Action cheapens the black man’s achievements. People need to be able to look at a high achieving Black man and respect him for his work.
All of this here cheapens everyone except the White man who probably made these rules. Any Latino or Black with any talent will recognize the challenges affirmative action brings for them in the future. People should be able to look at your degree and accept that you deserved it, they should not wonder if you were a charity case or not.
In the 60′s there were 2,000 applicants for every seat in the freshman class,
so how do you get a diverse group on campus?
The Ivy League has always had a quota system. 15% Jews (or everybody at Columbia would be Jewish from New York) X percentage for legacy (eg GWBush at Yale) and the rest geographically allotted by regions of the country. They are seeking the best while keeping a diverse student body.
Growing up in the South, it was a given that if your grades and SAT’s were good, you got into one of the first two of your college choices in large part because many fewer students from the South aspired to these schools.I knew poor boys who went to Brown and Harvard while their classmates aspired to Old Miss or Georgia Tech.
It may not seem fair to these hard working students, but it is one way these schools get a dynamic student body.
Here’s how it works:
“Asians” — meaning people of East Asian descent — have an average IQ of 105. Whites — people of European descent — have an average IQ of 100. Hispanics have an average IQ of 90. American blacks have an average IQ of 85.
These are uncontroversial scientific facts. You can read about the so-called “IQ gap” in first-year physical anthropology textbooks (e.g., “Human Biological Variation,” now in its second edition).
Few people understand race differences in intelligence. Actually, few people understand what “average means.” So when they see that blacks are 13% of the US population but less than 13% of college students, they think it must be caused by racial discrimination. It’s not. Blacks are just less intelligent, as a race, than whites. When you control for their lower intelligence, blacks are actually OVERrepresented.
But no one does that. Instead, they implement ludicrous (and discriminatory) affirmative action policies. Race quotas. The 4/5ths rule. Disparate impact rulings. It’s systemic racial discrimination designed to favor blacks and Hispanics (so-called non-Asian minorities, or NAMs) — to compensate for their lower average cognitive ability.
Unfortunately for Asians, they’re quite bright. More intelligent than whites, on average. So they get handicapped too.
As this article points out, Asians are already four times overrepresented in US universities. But you can’t let in too many qualified Asians and whites, because that would squeeze out the less-gifted blacks and Hispanics.
So that’s what’s going on here.
What I don’t understand is why Asians have to suffer in admissions while Whites get by with very little damage. If you look at the admission percentages in ivy leagues and other non-UC top schools, whites keep a fairly high admit rate while Asians have an extremely low admit rate to make room for blacks and hispanics. If anything, white people should be bearing the brunt of the mistakes of slavery and racism in the U.S. and lowering the white admit rate, but that’s never going to happen. It’s all B.S.
I hated UC Berkeley because of all the Asians. I went there to find diversity but really didn’t and instead left hating a racial group more than when I started as you really get to know all the bad things that make a group of people annoying. I guess I know how minorities feel among a whole bunch of whites. My graduate school choice will definitely be one where there is more diversity. Thank God for Oakland and San Francisco otherwise I would have transferred.
“If anything,” Professor S, white people should be rewarded for abolishing slavery.
Blacks and Arab slavers captured millions of blacks and Arabs and whites and sold them as slaves to blacks and Arabs and whites and American Indians. ONLY whites abolished slavery. ONLY whites.
Slavery was objectively the best thing that every happened to blacks. Look at the descendants of slaves, the African-Americans. Now look at Africans. See the difference?
Whites should also be rewarded for creating the world’s best countries. I don’t see mass immigration into Mexico or the Congo from white nations. I see mass immigration from third-world (meaning non-white) countries into first-world (meaning, for the most part, white) countries.
Perhaps in the drive to have top grades and SAT scores some Asian students an/or there parents are overlooking the fact that in the US schools put a high emphasis on individual diversity. Extracurricular activities, community involvement, varsity sports, real-life work experiences can significantly help students with slightly lower grades.
Perhaps in the drive to have top grades and SAT scores some Asian students an/or there parents are overlooking the fact that in the US schools put a high emphasis on individual diversity. Extracurricular activities, community involvement, varsity sports, real-life work experiences can significantly help students with slightly lower grades.
Ok, I’m an Asian student busting my ass off to get a chance to study in the States, and I really can’t agree with the whole idea that all Asians are dull and uninteresting.The students preparing for American colleges here know that the admission process is about much more than just scores. So we turn to extracurriculars. Some of the people I know have awesome ECs, like opening their own exhibitions, doing volunteer work in art treatment, developing new applications, or participating in international debate competitions. We don’t do the “Asian dullness” anymore, since we know we can’t afford it. But even with all those ECs and near-perfect SATs and GPAs, we still know we’ll have the least chance of getting in Ivies because we will be competing against each other, and not against applicants in the States. Nonetheless we can’t complain, since we are, after all, international applicants.
But when it’s about Asian Americans with full citizenships going through the same situation as we are, I don’t see why they should be discriminated against at all. I mean, they’re citizens. They have the grades, they have the extracurriculars, many of them are quite interesting individuals with wonderful personalities. Why are these people discriminated? They fulfill all the categories that Ivies assumedly look at. The only reason, then, is that they’re Asians, who are typically “nerdy, unamusing, math-oriented robots”, right?
Also, to Unamused:
What the hell, the only reason African Americans are what they are now is because they knew how to fight for their rights, and got it after hundreds of years of oppression and injustice – through the hands of whites. Although I’m not for retribution or anything, your idea that whites should be patted on the back for reversing the evil that they themselves created is simply crap. Accept the reality with grace, will you?
Holy crap…some of these comments are traumatizing. Some people are really deluded and/or ignorant of scientific facts:
1) There are VERY few genetic differences between races. In fact, there are more differences WITHIN races.
2) IQ is not an adequate measure of intelligence. You would know this unless you are somehow still living in the 1970′s.
3) Genetics and intelligence are not connected (in the way that you are thinking). Asian-Americans tend to get better grades because of their cultural upbringing. If a white person was raised by 1st gen Asian parents, they would produce the same results as their Asian-Am. counterpart.
@Grace …wtf….are you hitler? selective breeding does not improve/decrease intelligence of offspring…
I think the Ivies are right in limiting the number of Asian students. The raising of children without sufficient time to play or socialize with others is child abuse. It’s nothing less than that. I don’t care that it’s described as a “cultural trait.”. The Asian parents who have done this, have bent the rules in their favor. A child that had a “normal life” cannot compete with another child who is forced to study all the time, who Pre-learns the curriculum every school year in order to score higher than his fellow classmates. It’s not fair. I also worry about the psychological effect of this brutal regiment on children. Do we want our leaders to be adults who did not play as a child and weren’t allowed to interact normally as children? I don’t.
I may agree with limiting Asians for the sake of diversity, but portraying the entire Asian system as “child abuse” just doesn’t seem right. I know several Asian families around me, and they certainly do not restrict their children from playing all the time. Their kids go out and play, same as any other kid in town. I think drew is referring to the tiger mom – I believe it was a Chinese-American mom who’s a professor at Yale? – book, but believe me, that’s a very extreme case even among Asians. The vast majority (at least those I know) aren’t really like that. And I also believe that studying the materials ahead isn’t really “bending the rules”, it’s simply using your time another way. I think studying beforehand is better than getting wasted on Saturday night parties, for example. It’s hardly fair for those who did get wasted to complain that the people who actually studies bent the rules in their favor. Perhaps getting wasted may seem like the “normal life” for kids these days, but in the context of college admissions, it seems like simply another form of not studying to me. I’m neither for or against racial quotas at this point, but I think that those who are complaining about Asians studying harder should at least have the decency to study, then complain.
If everyone had to pay full price and admissions were based on test scores, high school rank, and extra-curricular activities, the we likely would see 30% Asian-American, 60% Euro-American, 5% Latino, and 5% African American. College would go back to being affordable again instead of having those who pay full tuition having to support themselves and another student who got to go for free.
Asians have earned the right to be greatly over-represented in student body representation compared to their 5% makeup of American society based on their educational achievement. Colleges aren’t helping society by using race to advance students who are less qualified at the expense of Asian and Euro-Americans that deserve the spots more based on their past achievements in high school and on SATs. Colleges certainly shouldn’t be making paying students pay double to cover students who are less qualified in place of more qualified students who would have paid their own way and kept tuition rates down.
Of course this is reverse discrimination. In the country that prides itself in overcoming racism by electing an African American as a president, this blatant racism is utterly shameful.
My own son was rejected my MIT even though he has perfect ACT score (all full, not a super score which is an aggregate, but perfect 18s and 36) , has more than 10 advanced placement completed courses, black belt in karate with 3 national championships, advanced pianist, volunteer at local library, top in school in many subjects, suggest scorer in math team, scholastic bowl team, perfect scores in Latin, and enough medals and trophies to fill a room. an all rounder with a very very high IQ. But he was no good for MIT, but some one from the same school, with lesser scores and much less achievements was admitted. Shameful racism at it’s worst. Makes me angry to say the least. It is most unfair to the student and generates racism in a person who never was considering race as a factor for anything. Shame on you, MIT, Harvard and other racist universities..
Hmmm….well I have been many places and seen many things…..you people don’t see the big picture…what if 90 percent of Harvardies were Latino or Black? Or 40 percent Asian. Us black guys would say screw Harvard. Africans would not consider it worth thought. Asians would still come on account to some misconceptions on the Ivies, and whites would slowly delete Harvard from there conversations and researching partnerships. Harvard is sacred to us all. If one race takes it over, Harvard would fall….kinda like Jewdaism before they allowed us Gentiles to join. Asians are 5% of population and still complaining? Well, what would happen if whites were 20%. Harvard would loose prestige in the older institutions as well as Europe. Harvard is regarded because of it educating key people within a demographic group. Japanese generals to Presidents in Africa. Some of Bin Ladens family may have been. Japanese don’t think much of any school in America anymore unless it has a history like Harvard. Harvard definetly did not think Asians were worth educating because of there grades back then. Stop complaining, plenty of wealthy people didn’t even graduate college. THE OPPORTUNITY DID NOT AFFORD THEM!!! So boo hoo, try something else.
I have read all the comments against the different races and how some people beleive your skin color determines your IQ; how stupid and ridulous this sounds. I wonder how those people got accepted in college. Those people should not be in an ivy league school for making a comment like that. I will hope they don’t think its true that Japanese are the smartest out of the Yellows, if so, I would be very interrested to hear their explanation. America with a population of 300 million have the best universities, if Asia with a poplulation of over 1 Billion and claim to be the smartest of the races, why can they have the best universities? and why do they have to come over in the old USA to be educated. What happen, I thaught they have the best teachers. They should stay in Asia and come up with the best idea that will change the world. I do not see the students migration from America to Asia. So please, next time you think of Yellows as the smartest of the races, the next question you will need to ask yourself is: in what subject “Math, Law, Social Welfare, Banking, Architecture, Medecine, Physics, Chemistry, Astrology, Archealogy, Communication, Electricity, etc…? At first you will say Math, but hold on, take a look at history and all the great mathematicians that unlock the mystery of the Universe, they were not Yellows, were they? And also ask yourself of the top discoveries that change the world we live in, I do not see any Yellows, do you? And all the great civilization that conquered the world, I don’t see Yellows, do you? Sending people to the moon, I don’t see Asia, do you? The last time we went to war with Asia, that did not go to well for them, do they and they supposed to be smart, give me a break. The last I saw USA is the greatest country in the world Not Asia with over 1 Billion people, and you claimed you are smart.
To state that Asian students are generally smarter than other students is an evasion of the real reason Asians are getting high grades. It has very little to do with intelligence or creativity. Read Amy Choa’s book about Tiger Moms. It has to do with parents raising children who have little or no play time or socializing with other children, but who spend most of their childhood cramming into books and piano lessons, pre learning the curriculum in order to beat other students. What’s the effect of this regiment on children? There are many articles about it.
If you are going to put a quota on Asian students, you should also put a quota on Ashkenazi Jews.
It seems that to those who thinks that discriminating against Asians is OK because there are only 5% Asians in the population and therefore they are overrepresented in top colleges. So, US population has 12% African Americans, but in those high earning sports such as NBA, NFL they are way way way overrepresented. What are we going to do? Simple, just set a quota so each team cannot have more than say, 20% blacks on a team. Very smart move, isn’t it.
By the way, calling Asians “yellow” is really brilliant. Very articulated.
The only way to end racial discrimination is to end racial discrimination. Meaning …
If race is not an important consideration in the admission process why even ask for it? Perhaps in making the admission decisions, the applicant name, gender and race should be withheld from the decision makers.
I am an Asian parent. While I liked what Robert said (he said anything below B is not accepted in his house. He would be “punished” if he gets a B), here is what I was thinking reading his comment – in my house, a B is not accepted by my KIDS. I dont need to reward them for As, and I dont need to punish them for Bs either. They simply never bring home Bs – they will work harder if their grades just drop a little, and at the mean time excel on all their activities (music, tennis, art, basketball) and doing community services.
We as parents instill in them early the high standard. They maintain their high standard on their own – because they themselves simply dont accept anything but the best
.___. i don’t know if any of you guys took any world history classes, but by golly, there are a few things that you people really need to know:
1) One of the biggest reasons why east Asians are claimed as the “smartest race” is because of the huge emphasis put onto education. If you look into history deep enough, you’ll see this is because of the prevalent Confucian influences (which stress that education is the way to upward social mobility), as well as the key to the rise in Asian economy (specifically speaking, the Four Asian Tigers– Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, and Korea). Our nations are built on the shoulders of the educated, and it is because of this– as well as the culture– that shapes a huge part of the educated east Asian culture. As some of you so rightly stated, it is not because we east Asians are genetically superior; it’s because we work a lot harder.
2) Have you guys ever lived in an east Asian country before? I presume that you haven’t, from what a lot of your comments seem to say. :I The Asian cap is extreme– to the point that many east Asians themselves become extreme. Korea, for one, has the second highest suicide rate in the world… and is ranked second for education. The pressures of education is totally off the charts. The competition for an A, for an example, is not objective; the best scores are determined by your rank in grades. As a result, plenty of kids (especially in high school) nearly kill themselves with academics, extracurriculars, and the like, in order to get accepted into the universities that so unjustly cut them off for their race. And although some other cultural factors come into play (i.e. general low self-esteem because of Korea’s over-obsession with looks), many of the suicides committed in Korea are correlated to education. This is a serious issue; it is not something to just be brushed off, like so. These percentages of the cap may just seem like numbers to you, but to me, I see real people. I see my people under the pressures of education. And it’s a horrid sight to see.
3) =.= In response to “Isaac Newton” — Consider mathematics. 0 came from India, didn’t it? The abacus came from China, didn’t it? The first form of writing in the world came from Sumeria, which is today Middle East (which is also in Asia), didn’t it? Plenty of innovations and the like have come from great mathematicians and scientists from all over Asia; it’s just that western countries dominated from adapting all of these technologies and creating more of their own.
The reason why westernization occurred is not because of intellectual inferiority; no, that would be an insult– and a statement of ignorance– to the other three continents of the world (Africa, Latin America, and Asia). The main reasons why Europe conquered are because of (a) the Middle Ages (where it was able to build up its infrastructure), (b) the Crusades (where people started to interact more with the Muslim merchants of the Middle East, who were, geographically, the middlemen of the Eurasian continent. The Europeans didn’t cut themselves off from the world either, unlike isolationist east Asia), (c) constant political competition, and (d) the proper geography/climate for large, domestic livestock (unlike the native Americas and most other Polynesian nations). There are other factors that come into play, but those are the main ones that I can think off the top of my head right now.
To point out that Asia does not hold the best universities and the like, solely because of their race, is, again, a statement of ignorance. Asia has simply tumbled down the more unfortunate path of history, unlike Europe and the United States. “Give me a break,” please, and read up on your world history before you go off making comments implying “yellows aren’t smart.” This applies to all others of you who believe that “whites made the best countries”; it is because, secularly-speaking, of the unfortunate factors of geography, disease, and open-ness to trade. To state absurdities like “slavery is the second best thing that happened to Africans” is… well, an insult to a whole ethnic race of people, and a statement of blatant ignorance.
5) “drew”‘s claim of a personality-less Asia stands; at the same time though, there are plenty of east Asians out there who are not only working their butts off, but have pretty awesome personalities, too. Some of the people I’ve met in Singapore, Taiwan, China, and Korea have some outstanding personalities, while keeping up their grades. Please, I beg of you, pray do not make assumptions.
And please, read up on your world history. And analyse it right, for goodness sakes.
Let’s get real everyone… Asians are clearly smarter, more humble, and soon when Hollywood gets over the fact that Asians aren’t all nerds with no social life, Asians are damn good at relationships and social life as well. The curtains are being pulled and the truth is coming out because of globalization. GET WITH IT. If countries like South Korea or Japan had the land and resources that white people have had here in the US… oh my goodness. GAME OVER. The world would be a better place. White people are sad and are has-beens.
@ high school student living in Korea:
Stop the long posts.. these white people don’t have the attention span to read them anyway.
Basically, people need to know that “Asians” aren’t only chinese, japanese or yellows. I’m Indonesian (which means i’m an Asian too) and not all parents here punizh their children if they get B or lower. Infact, most of the students i know, get a lot of Cs or lower bcs they always stay online until midnight. However, none of their parents punish them.
I’ve been surveying the comments on this article for some time now, and I decided to finally comment.
I think that I can speak for most Asians by saying that we could care less that we are overrepresented in U.S. universities. Why should that even be our burden? What we do care about is that our children shouldn’t be unfairly burdened by the curse of having to justify our success.
The newer generation of 1st and 2nd generation Asian parents are cognizant of the old stereotypes, and they are seeing the failures of generations’ passed. When I think of my 3 month old son, my fear is that even if i let him thrive socially, while still emphasizing the power of educational success, and allowing him to explore his extracurricular passions, will it be assumed that because of his racial designation and East Asian surname that his grades are a given, he is likely socially disadvantaged, and all his extracurriculars are merely for show?
The point is, the well educated 2nd generation (and well-informed, younger 1st generation) parents are fully aware of the criticisms out there. The next generation of Asian kids will be even more of a force to reckon with. The sad reality is that I don’t believe the Admissions departments across most of the U.S. will see it that way. That, in my opinion is TRUE RACISM. Nevertheless, this still won’t stop us.
Asians work their ass off trying to get into colleges and universities and some stupid American comes up saying they need more “diversity”?? Seriously? What does race and skin color have to do with students you accept into your school? They worked hard and they should get what they should because they deserve it.@A high school student living in Korea: I love your posts. They are so true. I wish everyone in the world read them. And @ all the people who wrote posts NOT supporting the idea that the American universities shouldn’t accept too many Asians and that it’s not fair for Asians to compete against whites, thank you all and I can’t agree with you more (:
What I don’t understand is, why can’t those Ivy League schools accept more students? They can still be very selective.
The only reason they don’t do that, I think, is because they want to make it very competitive so that they can charge more and more every year.
A good solution, I think, is to make all lessons available online (for a nominal fee). Self-learners don’t need to enroll to the colleges, but they may take qualifying exams (they will have to pay an arm and a leg for the exams, of course). If they pass, they may graduate and earn a valid degree. This I think will dramatically decrease the Asian student population who would rather not pay the tuition fees. Colleges then are free to take as many non-Asians as they want.
@Unamused – you are not very bright yourself. First of all, genetically, we are all the same. There are no different races – the perceived differences are only cultural. I recommend you read about genetics.
The diffrence lies in the training and conditioning. When you spend all day long training for piano, of course you will get better, but other skills such as “critical thinking” (which I suspect you lack) is neglected. So, there you have it. There needs to be an inclusive society for all of us to enjoy the greatness of the U.SA.
Thanks, Trix.
Why shouldn’t Asian American students be “overrepresented.” The American Dream states that anyone who works hard enough may have no restrictions in success; that America is a free country with the right to liberty. (Please pardon me, I am not trying to be racist, nor do I believe I am, I am just trying to make a point) Aren’t Latinos overrepresented in Landscaping, Janitorial Services, etc? Aren’t African Americans overrepresented in the NBA (Or sports in general)? If America is truly a democracy, truly such a internationally respected country, why should a certain ethnic group be held under a glass ceiling due to stereotypes, or simply just the blatant fact that others just don’t work?
Maybe thr U.S doesnt want america to turn into china so they are finding ways to keep asians down, lets face it America is a white mans world and needs to stay that way
Fascinating conversation thread overall and thank you for all those who support merit over race. I especially encourage those of you who still believe that Asian Americans are study machines with no social life to go check out the new research and maybe just talk to some Asian people. Asian Americans are possibly more modest but have a great diversity of opinions and personalities and are incredibly artistic people. They do also work extremely hard and that hard work should be rewarded, not punished.
What research will actually reveal is that first of all Asian Americans are composed of a diversity of more than 40 ethnic groups. Not all Asian Americans are academically successful, in fact, certain refugee groups fare substantially lower in education and standard of living than the American average. Also, statistics that show Asian Americans making more money than White counterparts don’t reveal that Asian Americans actually have higher degrees. So, what we see is that Asian Americans have to get higher degrees to make comparable money with someone white who is less educated. There are also a lot of financially disadvantaged Asian Americans as well, and low income is a factor that schools need to account for as well.
Part 2
…@Average Asian American…
I have the same concerns for my children because now they are going to grow up in a society where admissions quotas are going to be even tighter against Asian Americans. Asians will be competing against Asians and that’s a battle I’m not looking forward to. I talk to students at a local tutoring academy run by Asians who are taking an average of 12 AP classes in high school. Some take 18. This is all to compete. They talk about how the boys necessarily have to receive perfect scores on Math and AP Calc/Physics because they are Asian and the quota is woefully against them. I didn’t realize this reverse discrimination was even in existence in high school when I applied to colleges, but now it makes sense to me why I was denied to certain schools when I had such stellar academics and long list of extracurriculars.
Asian Americans need to have a stronger voice in education, in politics, in the media period. We need to stop swallowing the bitter pill and stand up for our children. Imagine their future. California schools have taken the difficult and necessary step away from race and I applaud them for that. 40% Asians don’t surprise me at all. In fact, as the article implies, Ivy Leagues would most likely be overrun by Asian Americans if they did away with the Asian quotas. As someone mentioned, no one is saying that we should have a racial quota in sports. So, why is there a racial quota in education? Are we saying that it’s ok to acknowledge natural ability and hard work in athletics, but not ok in the field of academics?
You guys are all pretentious douche bags. Get over it, if you don’t get into an ivy league, there’s always the military.
@Jojo
Not all Asians are Chinese. Asian Americans are not foreigners. They are American. Maybe more than you are. America is not a white man’s world. White men shot all the natives because they were greedy and wanted to steal the land from them then enslaved Africans because white men were too lazy to work.
@Jon
Look who’s talking. When blacks and hispanics do worse than whites, that proves they’re too stupid for Ivy. But if Asians do better than whites, that proves ” they’re pretentious”. If white students are too stupid to study and learn, they should join the military while Asian students who actually work should go to Ivy. Get over yourself.
Throughout so many of the comments there is an assertion that Caucasian Americans are lazy because their parents believe that it is vital for young people to spend sufficient time playing and socializing with other children, instead of spending most of their childhood taking prep classes and cramming on books and lessons. Most Caucasian Americans would also vehemently disagree with the enormous amount of psychological pressure that is often put on Asian kids to overachieve in school. Most Caucasian Americans would actually perceive that as abuse. It’s a cultural disagreement and given a choice, most Asian kids, I believe, would chose a childhood with normal play and socializing. I think it’s a case of where envy becomes superiority.
Hi I’m a Korean student that has immigrated to US in hopes of getting a better chance. In Korea there is so much competition that in 3rd grade I took private tutoring in Math, Art, English, Piano, and Tennis. I had a almost perfect score in my grade but I still took all these classes. When I first came to US I was so disappointed. I’m not trying to be racist but I saw so many people that didnt try, didnt even care, and didnt know what kind of opportunities they had -_- If we look at the rate of Asian students in prestigious colleges in US (ivy league) there is about 20%. I have read all the posts so far and some people said that it is a good idea for Asian students to be limited because we are endless studying machines with no social lifes. WELL GUESS WHY??? It’s because bunch of white people came together and said you know what we should take only 20% of Asians just so we can project our name as prestigious and protect minorities!!! Now thanks to them we have to study our butts off and still not get accepted just so they can make room for minorities that has less qualifications then us. I am seriously worried about my future now thanks to all these % acceptance into colledge and I have 95+ in all my pre-ap classes.
I am truly sorry that your life since 3rd grade has been so intensely consumed by studying, most likely at the expense of socializing and spending a good amount of time in the playground with other children. I presume that in 3rd grade that wasn’t your idea. The good news is that you are in America now, where we don’t want our kids’ lives to be 95% devoted to studying and beating out other kids in school. Nor do we want our best colleges to solely select students on the basis of test results. We don’t believe in that. It’s not part of our culture and it won’t be. So just relax and stop by the playground and watch the kids play. We see that as extremely value not just for creating a happy lives, but truly effective future professionals who work well with other people. Thanks.
You know, just about every comment here is racist. Asians calling whites lazy? Majority if people who get into Ivy League schools are white.. So there goes that analysis. I hope Asians take a step back and realize whites and Asians are in very similar shoes. Both these racist have people that are denied to let in members of the other races. Race quotas should be deleted, it’s racist.. Period. Instead of venting frustration, why don’t these two groups work together towards a common goal. The goal should be no matter the race, if you work hard, study hard, you will succeed. Isn’t that the American dream anyway. It’s disappointing too see these two races sling insults at each other. We are all Americans, the future is OURS together, to share, not rule over each other. Fight against race quotas and both whites and Asians will win.. Real simple. In the age of information, only the most discipline, studios, and knowledgable will climb to success. It’s not Rocket scientist. There are smart African Americans, whites, Asians, Latinos, natives etc. this whole whites killed the indegenous.. Is in the past, let it go, fight to make tomorrow better. Fight against racism, like this.
@ we are not lazy
Asian Americans also play and socialize with other kids. You should think before you stereotype Asians as asocial nerds. Also, Asian parenting is not abusive, thank you very much. White culture is no better than Asian culture. Whites abuse their kids, too.
How does it help to tell the Korean student to relax and stop by the playground? It doesn’t change the fact that Ivy League quotas require Asians to work harder than whites to get in the same school.
I am truly sorry that your life has been so intensely consumed by playing. Maybe if you studied more, you wouldn’t be so bitter towards Asians. You call yourself “not lazy”? Dream on.
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